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is ¿ªÔÆÌåÓý’s listener-powered journalism podcast. Every episode begins with a question submitted by our audience. Today, Jesse Wingate of Virginia asked:

“Is being a Vermonter a salient identity for those who have moved away, and do people who have moved away still call themselves Vermonters?�

Myra Flynn: From ¿ªÔÆÌåÓý and the NPR Network, this is Brave Little State. I’m Myra Flynn and I want to tell you a love story.

Myra Flynn: How did you know who I was, because you came to my concert, were you just a stalker? Or?

Myra Flynn: Well, my love story.

Phil Wills: I mean, truthfully, I kind of was a little bit of a stalker.

Myra Flynn: Aha. Yes. OK.

Myra Flynn: This is my husband, Phil Wills. We both grew up in Vermont. But here’s the kicker � we never met in Vermont. Which, if you know the small town that the state of Vermont is, it’s like � OK, maybe I don’t know everyone in the state. But like we have this other thing in common that you could argue in a lot of ways made it really hard to miss each other.

Phil Wills: And she's brown, like me, which is pretty crazy, because there's not a lot of us in Vermont, so it's kind of like you either knew everyone or you knew someone that knew somebody. So I was curious on how we, how we never met.

Myra Flynn: Our paths finally crossed nearly eight years ago, on the other side of the country � Los Angeles, California. That’s where I was pursuing my music career and Phil was focusing on his TV career. Yeah, we were doing a lot of art.

Phil Wills: And a really good friend of mine knew I lived in Los Angeles and said, “Hey, there's a Vermonter that is in Los Angeles as well, and she's phenomenal. If you ever get a chance, you should check out one of her shows.� So I found you on Facebook and just started following you and said, hey, maybe I'll get a chance to be able to check out one of her shows while she's out here in L.A.

Myra Flynn: So, wait� if somebody I don't know, like, if somebody told me about someone I should check out in a city this big, I don't know that I would go check them out, you know. Is it so, was it because it came from a Vermonter, because I was a Vermonter?

Phil Wills: You know, I think it's, it's a little bit of Vermont pride. Vermont's such a small, tiny little state. (Laughter) I mean, quite honestly, when I drive around Los Angeles and I see a Vermont license plate, I always try to sneak up and see if I know them somehow, because we are so well connected in Vermont.

Myra Flynn: Phil did come to my concert. We connected afterwards online and met up to talk about all things Vermont. And the rest, as they say, is history.  

I still really value that my husband is a Vermonter. And a Black Vermonter at that. We know what it’s like to navigate New England stoicism and New England racism. We both know how to prepare for the onslaught of challenges life throws our way with the same grit we used to prepare for winter. We parent from a place of similar values and expectations for our daughter around perseverance and self-sufficiency. And though we are artists, we approach our creativity with the ethic and panache of a dairy farmer.

Jesse Wingate

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Being a Vermonter is part of our identity, even though we live in California. It’s part of Jesse Wingate’s identity, too. Even though he lives in Virginia.

Jesse Wingate: I've never once called myself a Virginian. And I still don't think, I don't know if I could, even though I've been away from Vermont for so long.

Myra Flynn: Jesse Wingate grew up in North Troy, in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont. He bounced around the state in various corners, and then about a decade ago his partner got a better job opportunity elsewhere. So, they said: “What the heck. Let’s give it a go.�

More from Brave Little State: Why do people leave Vermont?

But even though he’s left Vermont physically, he’s still got Vermont on his mind.

Jesse Wingate

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Jesse Wingate: I know that this is probably cliche, but I miss maple creemee. I miss the mountains. I miss hiking. I miss the soil. We had this beautiful soil. I miss the rivers. I miss the general stores. I miss the political climate. I think, particularly when I was in Burlington, I miss the diverse art scene. I miss co-ops. Oh, I miss co-ops. Yes, I miss the co-ops. 

Myra Flynn: Jesse misses Vermont so much that he wonders how other Vermont expats relate to the “Vermonter� inside.

So, he asked Brave Little State:

Jesse Wingate: Is being a Vermonter a salient identity for those who have moved away? And do people who have moved away still call themselves Vermonters?

Myra Flynn: We’ll be right back.

Bethel to L.A.

Myra Flynn: JP Candelier grew up about 15 minutes from me in Vermont in the small town of Bethel. Now, he lives about 15 minutes from me in Los Angeles. We haven’t actually seen each other now for more than a decade, but we have stayed in each other’s lives, virtually. And I thought about him immediately after learning about our question-asker, Jesse’s, curiosity. So I invited him over to reconnect with my family.

Myra Flynn: OK. Avi, What’s your favorite thing about Vermont?

Avalon Wills: All the snow.

Myra Flynn: Yeah? 

Avalon Wills: Mhm.

Myra Flynn: It’s not too cold for you?

Myra Flynn: And then we sat down for an interview so I could learn more about his own westward journey.

The L.A. chapter of JP’s life started 12 years ago because of a job.

JP Candelier

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JP Candelier: The company I was working for in Vermont, they decided to open an office in Manhattan Beach. I literally, as soon as they announced that, I went directly to my manager, and I asked, “Can I go?� And within three months, I had come out here. And I wasn't convinced when I first got here that I was gonna stay, because I had so many friends in Vermont. I quit four bands to move here. I was in four bands, and I quit them all to move out here, and I was pretty lonely.

And the sad thing is, even though L.A. is full of musicians, I am not in a full time band, I haven't really had the same kind of, you know, success in music as I did in Burlington, that was something that was somewhat unique to Burlington compared to L.A. 

I miss that, being part of that community.

Myra Flynn: Do you still Identify as a Vermonter out here in Los Angeles? 

JP Candelier: Yeah, I think for the most part I definitely do. I think of myself as a transplant from Vermont in L.A., and even though I've been here 12 years, I'm married, two kids, have a house, probably gonna be here for, who knows, maybe the rest of my life. I still feel like a transplant.

Just like a few days ago, I was talking about � my wife was complaining how cold it was, and I was like, oh, you know, “We used to go in the sauna at my friend Aaron's house in the middle of winter, and then we'd run out naked and jump in the snow� and like, she like, couldn't fathom. (laughter)

When I see, if I'm driving on the highway and I see a car with a Vermont license plate, I get excited and, like, try to speed up and see if I know them, even though, you know, I never know who they are. But, yeah. I definitely identify as a Vermonter in L.A.

I don't think of myself as a typical Vermonter, because I am a person of color. Vermont is one of the whitest states in the United States. So, you know, I hadn't really thought about this, but I don't think of myself as a Vermonter, maybe in the how I think of the stereotypical Vermonter � which is the hippie kind of crunchy vibe. There's the farmer vibe. I had a lot of those growing up in my town, you know, hunting, deer hunting. So I don't identify as that kind of Vermonter.

JP Candelier

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Myra Flynn: JP doesn’t identify as “that kind of Vermonter� because, I learned, Vermont isn’t the only place he grew up. In fourth grade, JP’s mom got sick and the care she needed was in New York City. So JP and his family picked up and moved from central Vermont to the Fredrick Douglass housing projects in Manhattan. And though JP and his family planned to stay for only three months � three months turned into three years. And then, they moved back to Bethel, Vermont � which was a whole other culture shock to navigate.

JP Candelier: You know, I felt like a country kid when I moved to New York City, and I felt like a city kid trapped in a country, like, setting when I moved back. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, even though I identify as a Vermonter, it's always been kind of a weird, uncomfortable, like�

Myra Flynn: Identity?

JP Candelier: Identity, yeah, like two extremes. They feel like two extremes. 

Burlington to the Dominican Republic

(Car sounds)

Shannon Werlin: My name is Shannon Werlin, and I was raised in Burlington, Vermont, and I now live in Cabarete, which is a little surf, windsurf town on the north coast of the Dominican Republic.

Shannon Werlin

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Myra Flynn: The sounds you’re hearing are from that little surf town. I asked Shannon to record them.

But long before Shannon was here as a resident, she was coming here on vacation. Shannon went to college at Norwich University in Northfield. Often, when she and her husband both had time off, they would travel to the DR. After college, they stayed in Vermont, but kept this tradition alive. 

They’d go pretty much every year, but on one of their visits, in 2020, the world shut down, because of COVID, and they found themselves stuck. And sure, they could have made their way back to Vermont eventually, but they looked around and realized they could live out their lockdown on the beach next to the ocean? So, they chose the ocean life.

That was five years ago, and they’re still there.

Shannon Werlin

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Shannon Werlin: Yes, I think I do still consider myself a Vermonter, even after four years away. Living internationally, when people ask me where I'm from, my first answer is most of the time, Vermont. And I would say that I'm a Vermonter before I'm an American, which is an interesting thing too. There's a lot of stereotypes about being American I don't like to identify with. So we have Vermont. Vermont is always my first answer.

To me, the things that I associate being from a Vermonter and from a family that’s several generations Vermont, I identify kind of with that working class mentality, that, that blue-collar, you know, get it done kind of attitude. Vermonters have been very open minded. And very kind of like, you do your thing and I'll do mine. 

Shannon Werlin

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I think there’s an invisible ceiling in Vermont that you don’t recognize is there until you leave. There's not a lot of professional growth, or it doesn't feel to me, there's a lot of economic growth. And I think you have to leave to kind of break some of those invisible barriers, even around your own psyche, that you don't know are there, because you just kind of go through the motions, whether you realize it or not. And when you are removed from that, you can see that there are, there's just so much more. I mean, Vermont has some diversity. It's a refugee resettlement community, which I'm grateful to have grown up into. But that is still such a small, small piece of the diversity that's out in the world globally. It's just the tiniest snapshot that I was really proud to have growing up, because I was like, “Look, I'm in Vermont, but, you know, in the â€�90s, all the Bosnians came in, and then the Somalians, Vietnamese,â€� and all of those waves. I remember those waves of cultures coming through the Burlington area, specifically, when I was growing up and being really grateful for that, because I thought I was being exposed to new ideas and new cultures. But it was like, just the tiniest drop, really. 

Myra Flynn: We’ll be right back.

Myra Flynn: Welcome back to Brave Little State. I’m Myra Flynn.

And earlier in the episode, I told you a love story, my love story: how Vermont brought me and my husband, Phil, together, even though we’d both already left the state and were living in L.A. The truth is, Phil and I always remained curious about moving back to Vermont. From a distance, it was wild to see the boom of the microbrewery, the rise of Sen. Bernie Sanders, and then, after the pandemic hit, to see so many younger folks leaving big cities to move there.

More from Brave Little State: How are people who moved to Vermont during the pandemic doing now?

So, in 2021, in the throes of the pandemic and a daunting lockdown in L.A. we figured, let’s try it � let’s move back.

Phil Wills: Yeah, I think our move back to Vermont, we had all good intentions of moving back and being around family and kind of settling in and digging our feet into all things Vermont. What we realized is that there wasn't enough in Vermont to satisfy my soul, is what I kind of came to terms with. I love being around family. I love being around close friends, and I loved being in Vermont â€� but Vermont, week in, week out, month in, month out, doesn't, it doesn't grow, it doesn't, it doesn't change, it doesn't. It, for me personally, it didn't help me grow as a person. I felt like I was just kind of stagnant. I always say that Vermont was ready for us, but we weren't ready for Vermont just yet. 

Myra Flynn: I agree with what Phil says here. And I’ll say some other things he isn’t saying. When we moved to Vermont, it was post-George Floyd’s murder, and as a Black family making the move, I’m not sure we quite expected how many folks would be looking to us for � I don’t know � answers? On how to solve systemic racism. Like, people would literally come up to us on the street and ask us for our opinions on police reform. It didn’t feel like the organic connection to community I was used to, not only having, but having pride in, in the state.

Phil and I stayed for a year and a half, but eventually we said uncle. The spotlight felt too inauthentic and strange and frankly � unsafe. So we turned around and moved back to what we knew. Los Angeles.

Myra Flynn: And it was really sad. I'm, I'm really sad that that didn't work out. 

Phil Wills: I miss Vermont. And I can't be there anymore.

Myra Flynn: Phil and I haven’t completely written off moving back to Vermont � again. Because our family is there, going back always feels inevitable.

But for now, L.A. is home, and we’re excited to continue making memories here.

But Joe Russell � he came back to Vermont, and stayed.

Vermont to Jamaica � To Vermont

Joe Russell: When I think back to 2005 Joe, I don't know that he would have any concept of now, in 2025, that I'm still living in Vermont.

(Bird sounds)

Myra Flynn: Joe Russell grew up in Jamaica � not Jamaica, Vermont, like Jamaica Jamaica.

Joe Russell

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Growing up there, he’d never even heard of Vermont until a close friend of his began working at the University of Vermont and suggested he apply for a job there working in residential life. This was 2005, and Joe did apply, and got the job. So off he went to Vermont, on a work visa. When that visa expired, Joe had to move back home to Jamaica. And he settled back into life on his home island.

Myra Flynn: Joe figured, “OK, cool, I’m doing this now.� Until UVM came knocking again, asking him to come back. So, he did.

Joe Russell: It feels so hard to try and claim the identity of being a Vermonter. For me, one of my salient experiences early on in my time in Vermont, I forget exactly where I was, but a little general store in town, and someone � a stranger � asked, you know, where I was from. And I think I framed an answer that sounded like, “Well, I grew up in Jamaica, but now as a Vermonter, I live in Burlington.� And this sweet older woman put her hand on my shoulder and just shook her head politely and said, “Oh, oh dear. That word Vermonter means something here, and unless you've been here for generations, you're not a Vermonter.�

I, I will say out loud, I use the phrase with a lowercase v, “vermonter.� I consider myself a Vermonter in that it has become my home and the place that I know and the place that I've actually spent most of my life now, but also will recognize the complexity of the capital V Vermonter meaning something for families that have been here for multiple generations. And to be a Vermonter is not just to have spent time in the state, but to have this deep ancestral connection to the state in many ways.

In Vermont, there is this culture of close community, but also fierce, independent, self-reliance: I want to be around others, and I rely on community, but the value of, “You should be able to take care of yourself, get through a winter, do what you need to do,â€� I think is a fairly Vermont thing. And to compare and contrast that with culture at home in Jamaica, which to me is very communal, very collectivist, very “Strangers are familyâ€� and it's not odd to offer a ride to a stranger, to ask for some help from someone that you might not know well, is such an interesting thing for me to kind of like parse around. Am I becoming more of a Vermonter or New Englander in this individualistic society? Or how do I hold on to some of my Jamaican roots that are, yeah, no strangers can be family. 

So, yeah, I think I have adopted a little bit of Vermont culture. It's kind of like Jamaican fusion. It's kind of like my version of, I've made my Vermont experience suit me.

When I think back to having to leave Vermont and leave the United States. It really was this kind of universe being pulled out from under me feeling. So, I was working at the time, was in the United States, here on a work visa. And that work visa had a fairly finite clock to it. Everybody knows that at some point the end of the work visa happens. And so when that happened, I moved back home to Jamaica. And so at the time was, you know, had really started to build really close, tight knit relationships and friendships, and started to build a life for myself here in Vermont. And all of a sudden it was kind of that upheaval of having to move home occurred.

Certainly when I left Burlington, when I left Vermont and said goodbye to friends, in my mind, I was also closing a chapter. I could foresee myself visiting, potentially, someday, but also in that moment never thought of myself as ever living in Vermont again.

Myra Flynn: Did you miss it? 

Joe Russell: Absolutely. Some of it was specific to community that I had built, friendships. Burlington is a pretty special place. You know, my local barber knew me, the coffee shop I went to, they knew my name, right, like there was an intimacy to life that also, to me, felt very special. And in moving home, though those� some of those elements were present at home, there absolutely was this mourning and grief and loss of leaving behind the life that I had created in Vermont. And again, when I had left it, it was clear in my mind, I was like, “Well, goodbye, Vermont. It was great, but I don't think I'm going to see you ever again, maybe to visit, but not to live.�

So three years later, I got a call from the person who hired me back to the University of Vermont, and when she said, “Would you consider coming back to do this?â€� I was sold. I was it. I was like, 100% â€� and then she just kept going. She kept, she kept trying to, like, frame this argument and tell me why. And like, I was like, “No, no, no, yeah, nope. I'm ready. I'm ready.â€� 

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Joe Russell

It's interesting now that having lived here in the state for a total number of years, that is not insignificant anymore, the frequency with which I get asked the question, “Well, where are you from?�

Over time, I have become a little bit more, either playful or petty, depending on how you take it, and depending on the day, when those questions are asked. You know, “Where are you from?� “Oh, I live in Middlebury.� “Oh, no, but, but where are you from?� I said, “Well, right now, I live in Middlebury, where I'm from. Middlebury, Vermont. What do you mean?�

Credits

Thanks to Jesse Wingate, of Virginia, for the great question.

This episode was reported by Myra Flynn. It was edited and produced by Josh Crane, Sabine Poux and Burgess Brown. Our intern is Catherine Morrissey. Angela Evancie is our Executive Producer. Digital support from Sophie Stephens. Theme music by Ty Gibbons; other music by Blue Dot Sessions.

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