Perhaps you've seen one 鈥� or many 鈥� on your travels. You've probably noticed the sign first: Big, and yellow, with black letters.
Note: Our show is made for the ear! As always, we recommend listening if you can.
The Dollar General store in Fairfax, a maroon-ish, standard-looking box, pops up as you make your way along Route 104. It鈥檚 brand new 鈥� it just opened up in October 鈥� and when we stop by, it鈥檚 about two weeks before Christmas. While there are nearly a dozen cars in the parking lot, it鈥檚 practically silent inside.
This oddly quiet store is far from the only Dollar General in the state. As of today, there are 37 Dollar General stores in Vermont.
And if you鈥檝e been inside one, you know the shelves are stocked with an assortment of items: picture frames, paper towels, cleaning supplies, seasonal decor, juice, coffee, candles, toothbrushes 鈥� and, perhaps, under a big sign that says 鈥淒G Deals,鈥� lemon bleach.
For folks like Pat Douglas, it鈥檚 that variety 鈥� plus the prices 鈥� that bring him to the Dollar General in Johnson. It鈥檚 about 3 p.m. when we meet him. He鈥檚 just off work, and he鈥檚 here to pick up some coffee. A big container of it costs $7.50.
鈥淵ou go up to the store, it鈥檚 $10,鈥� Pat says. 鈥淪o I just saved $2.50.鈥�
Douglas heads over to the register and chats with the store clerk. He's the kind of guy who seems to just know everyone (including one guy passing by who turns out to be his ex-brother-in-law).
For Pat Douglas, the appeal of Dollar General is pretty simple: It鈥檚 more affordable than the other market in town.
鈥淚 got three kids and a wife, and she works part-time, and so if I can save $40 just coming here, shopping twice a week, that鈥檚 $80 a week I鈥檓 saving,鈥� Douglas says.
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Meet our question-asker
From where Danielle Drogalis stands, Dollar General's game plan seems to involve "going into those towns that don't have big chain grocery stores and putting up shops right next to them."
Danielle is the latest winner of a public voting round. If you're not familiar with how works, we answer questions about Vermont that have been submitted and then voted on by you, our audience. Why? We want to make our journalism more inclusive, more transparent and more fun.
Danielle's winning question was:
Why does Vermont allow so many Dollar Generals?
Danielle lives in Swanton with her family, which includes three kids and a whole menagerie of animals: Kids, cats, chickens, a dog, a hamster, and a turtle.
She is not a regular Dollar General shopper. But she has been inside.
鈥淚 remember I had to pick up a couple picture frames real quick,鈥� she says. 鈥淚 was driving by one, and I stopped in.鈥�
Danielle tells us she became interested in the store after she and her husband were driving around the state.
鈥淲e鈥檝e noticed Dollar Generals popping up everywhere,鈥� she says.
Danielle is a math teacher, and she approaches her curiosity systematically. She says growing up in Vermont, she was bombarded by what she jokingly calls 鈥減ropaganda鈥� about the importance of local stores.
And she鈥檚 concerned that the proliferation of Dollar Generals could erode what she 鈥� and many others 鈥� see as an essential part of Vermont鈥檚 character.
鈥淭hings that I always grew up thinking that were important to Vermont, like 鈥楤uy Local鈥� ... It鈥檚 just funny to see all these Dollar Generals just pop up in spite of that,鈥� she says.
But, Danielle says, she can also see why Dollar General thrives here.
鈥淚 get why someone would go there, because things are cheaper,鈥� she says. 鈥淪o if you're trying to stretch a dollar, which a lot of people in Vermont are doing, that's where you would go to get certain items.鈥�
Danielle鈥檚 question about Dollar Generals isn鈥檛 just about one chain of dollar stores. It also asks: How much say do Vermont towns really have about who does business, and where?
Once upon a time in Chester
Dollar General opened its first store in Vermont in 2006. Today, like we said, there are 37 scattered across the state. If you look at a Google Map, you can see these sort of clusters around Barre and Rutland. And then there are outposts in smaller towns such as Fairlee and Arlington.
Back in 2011, Dollar General proposed a location in the town of Chester, in Windsor County. It has a population of roughly 3,000 people, and a historic village with local businesses lined up along a town green.
Claudio V茅liz says his reaction to the project proposal was "negative, immediately." V茅liz is an architect based in Chester. He was on the planning commission when the Dollar General was proposed, and he says he was concerned about how the store was going to look.
鈥淭here鈥檚 a reason they鈥檙e called big box stores,鈥� V茅liz says. 鈥淭hey鈥檙e not known as New England Victorian stores. They鈥檙e known as big box stores. They鈥檙e effectively very, very inexpensively built aircraft hangars.鈥�
This was going to be more of a small box store 鈥� about 9,000 square feet. And it was going to be a little bit down the road from the village center.
But V茅liz says there was another concern: 鈥淭he economic impact or the commercial impact on a community.鈥�
Shawn Blair owns the Southern Pie Cafe, right in the heart of the village. He was just getting his businesses started when this was going on.
鈥淭he main thought from customers鈥� point of view and small businesses, is that the big corporate conglomerates come into town, it鈥檚 bad for business and bad for the view of a small business town of Vermont,鈥� he says.
Across town, over near the railroad tracks and the depot, there were worries about a more long-standing local business: Lisai鈥檚 Chester Market, a grocery store.
鈥淎t first, we were very nervous,鈥� says market co-owner Lonnie Lisai. 鈥淎nother full-line grocery store coming to rural Vermont 鈥� [a] rural village, like Chester, 3,000 people. I said, 鈥極h my God.鈥� We didn鈥檛 know if we were gonna make it.鈥�
Lisai鈥檚 Market has been in the family for 95 years. Lonnie Lisai's brothers run locations in Bellows Falls and Alstead, New Hampshire.
鈥淣ot that I was anti-people-coming-in,鈥� Lisai explains. 鈥淎nybody can have a business, they can build a business in the community. I believe in capitalism. It works. And so I understood they had all the rights in the world to come to Chester.鈥�
And there was definitely support for for the idea. Alicia Muguira was pro-Dollar General.
鈥淛ust because it鈥檚 closer for me,鈥� she says. 鈥淚 didn鈥檛 have to travel to Springfield. And it brings business to the community.鈥�
At this point, the story of Chester is probably sounding familiar to you. A small Vermont town grapples with a proposed development by a national corporation.
And to Danielle鈥檚 question, about the proliferation of Dollar Generals here, we think Chester鈥檚 story holds a lot of answers.
For example, why would a company that earned in 2018 even have been interested in such a sleepy, out-of-the-way town?
Dollar General's corporate strategy
Dollar General is not a business that just so happens to be really popular in Vermont. We鈥檙e talking about a company with an aggressive growth strategy.
On a recent, CEO Todd Vasos touted the company's strong finances.
鈥淣et sales increased, compared to net sales of $6.4 billion in the third quarter of 2018,鈥� he said.
Dollar General also hit a big milestone during the third quarter: They opened their 16,000th store.
Growth is a key part of the Dollar General鈥檚 corporate strategy. According to the company鈥檚 , they鈥檝e opened an average of 1,000 stores annually over the last three years.
Most stores are small 鈥� they average about 7,400 square feet, and are designed to be 鈥渓ow-cost, no frills鈥� buildings. Stores also tend to have a small staff, between six and 10 people, according to director of public relations Crystal Ghassemi.
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In our interview with Ghassemi, we ask her how she would answer Danielle鈥檚 question.
鈥淚 think it鈥檚 important for us to understand that for Dollar General, we keep the customer at the center of everything that we do,鈥� she says. 鈥淎nd then as we're looking for where we can add additional locations, keeping their needs is really where we're squarely focused.鈥�
So, not a direct answer, but her implication is that more Dollar General stores are good for their customers.
The majority of Dollar General stores are in small towns., 75% are located in communities with 20,000 or fewer people.
鈥淲hat we often see Dollar General in particular do is that they鈥檒l go into a very small town,鈥� says Stacy Mitchell, the co-director of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance, a national advocacy group, and the author of We talk to her over Skype.
鈥淎nd we often see Dollar General open across the street or next door to that local grocery store," Mitchell says. "They take away typically of that local grocery store, and so we鈥檝e seen just countless local grocery stores disappear in small towns.鈥�
The Institute for Local Self-Reliance is an outspoken critic of Dollar General and similar chains for what it calls
鈥淲hat we鈥檙e seeing in our research is that the communities and the populations most harmed by the destructive effects of these stores are often low-income people,鈥� Mitchell says. 鈥淒ollar stores have negative impacts on employment and on wages, particularly for retail workers.鈥�
Chrystal Ghassemi, of Dollar General, takes issue with this criticism.
鈥淲e see the addition of each new Dollar General store in communities as a positive one,鈥� she says. 鈥淲e are creating local new jobs in each of [these] communities.鈥�
And when we ask if Dollar General specifically targets lower-income areas for development, Ghassemi says:
鈥淎bsolutely not.鈥�
But in , the company says its core customers are 鈥渓ow- and fixed-income households.鈥� And in that , CEO Todd Vasos described their target customer as being 鈥渁lways a little stretched.鈥�
鈥淥ur core consumer 鈥� we see her about where we had the last couple of quarters, she still has a little bit of extra money in her pocket, continues to be employed at a pretty high rate,鈥� Vasos said. 鈥淏ut always remember: Our core customer is always a little stretched.鈥�
Now, Danielle鈥檚 question is about why there are so many Dollar Generals in Vermont 鈥� not whether the stores are helping or hurting communities. But regardless, Stacy Mitchell, from the Institute for Local Self-Reliance, says that dollar stores鈥� ambitious growth can take comunities by surprise:
鈥淏ecause they are a fairly small footprint, they have kind of come in under the radar, and have been allowed to sort of proliferate without people noticing and without really going through a thoughtful process of asking, 鈥業s an appropriate use? Is this beneficial to the community?鈥� on a case-by-case basis.鈥�
Back to Chester
鈥淲hen they first hit rural Vermont, it took us, everybody, off-guard," says Lonnie Lisai, the owner of the local grocery store in Chester.
When Dollar General proposed a store here in 2011, the town had a . And in this town, the question of whether Dollar General could build a store took four years to answer.
Some quick background, in case you鈥檙e not a land-use buff: In any Vermont community, there are a couple of boxes that a proposal like this might need to check. If there鈥檚 local zoning, the project has to be in compliance with it. If the project triggers , it needs an Act 250 permit. And Act 250 says the project has to adhere to the community鈥檚 town plan. Got it?
鈥淭he town plan is extremely important under Act 250, because one of the Act 250 criteria is conformance to the town plan,鈥� says Jim Dumont, a lawyer based in Bristol.
Act 250, of course, is Vermont鈥檚 land use and development law.
鈥淚f the land is already subject to Act 250, then any changes to the land use will trigger an Act 250 amendment process,鈥� Dumont says. 鈥淎nd that was true in Chester. But generally a commercial development that鈥檚 not 10 acres is going to be exempt.鈥�
So this Dollar General proposal in Chester was subject to both Act 250, and local zoning. And it got approval on both fronts. It looked like smooth sailing for the project 鈥� that is, until a group of Chester residents came together to try to overturn both decisions. They hired Jim Dumont, the attorney, to represent them.
The architect Claudio V茅liz, whom we met earlier, was a member of the opposition, as it were. And he says the strongest argument he and the others could make in court was 鈥渁rchitectural.鈥�
鈥淭he incompatibility of that building,鈥� he explains, referring to the design's inauthentic features.
鈥淔or example, the cupola on top has no function, it doesn鈥檛 air out the space 鈥� it鈥檚 simply cosmetic, 鈥� V茅liz says. 鈥淭here are no examples whatsoever in all of Chester of any fake features.鈥�
They also made arguments about floodways, and traffic. But attorney Jim Dumont says their main message was that a Dollar General would
鈥淎ll construction of new buildings must 鈥榓dhere harmoniously to the overall New England architectural appearance, which gives the center of Chester its distinct regional character and appeal,鈥欌€� Dumont says.
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鈥淚n my view, the largest complaint that people had frankly was that there was gonna be a Dollar General in Chester,鈥� says Alan Biederman, the attorney who represented the developer for Dollar General, a company called Zaremba Group. He spoke to us over Skype.
鈥淪o that was handled as what鈥檚 called an aesthetics decision, meaning that the project as proposed doesn鈥檛 fit the character of the town or the area in the town where it鈥檚 being located,鈥� Biederman says.
Biederman remembers the other arguments about floodways, and so forth. On aesthetics, he says Zaremba Group did make some changes to the design of the proposed Dollar General.
鈥淭here were aesthetic changes made to put shutters up, and to make it look more barn-like,鈥� he says. 鈥淪ome people didn鈥檛 like those 肠丑补苍驳别蝉.鈥�
After multiple appeals, the case ended up in the Vermont Supreme Court.
The world of zoning
We鈥檒l get back to Chester in a minute. But first, to understand why there are so many Dollar General stores in Vermont, we need to take a brief detour into the world of zoning.
Karen Horn is the director of policy and advocacy at the She says when it comes to zoning, town by town, the regulations run the gamut.
鈥淶oning really directs your land-use vision in your community,鈥� she says.
Take Waitsfield. It鈥檚 on one end of the spectrum, with strong zoning bylaws. with provisions about the 鈥渁daptive reuse of historic barns,鈥� keeping the 鈥渞ural and scenic character of the Route 100 corridor,鈥� and what kind of signs you can put up in town.
But some towns have weak or vague regulations, and other towns don鈥檛 have any zoning bylaws at all.
鈥淚 generally say to towns, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot if you don't have any kind of bylaw in place,鈥� Horn says. 鈥淵ou're leaving all those decisions up to whoever decides to come and develop in your community.鈥�
But while zoning regulations help direct the aesthetics of a community, there鈥檚 little they can say about the kind of businesses that come in. If a business meets the zoning requirements, the town can鈥檛 discriminate.
鈥淵ou can't say, 鈥楴o Dollar General.鈥� You can't say, 鈥楴o Wal-Mart,鈥欌€� Horn says. 鈥淎s a matter of fact, another fight we had years ago is, you can鈥檛 say, 鈥楴o' ... I don鈥檛 know what they鈥檙e called. Sex shops?鈥�
She means adult entertainment stores.
鈥淵es, adult entertainment stores. You can't say, 鈥楴o鈥� to something like that,鈥� Horn says.
Act 250 does limit some of the bigger stores from coming in. But Dollar General stores are usually smaller developments.
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And Dollar General and other developers have gotten good at figuring how to keep their projects below the Act 250 thresholds. That鈥檚 according to Greg Boulbol, the general counsel at state Natural Resources Board.
鈥淭hose are the jurisdictional triggers,鈥� he says. 鈥淭hey were developed by the Legislature many, many, many years ago.
Boulbol says he doesn't believe that these developers "generally are acting in any shady way."
"It鈥檚 just the way the law was written," he says.
And even when a project 鈥� say, a Dollar General 鈥� does need Act 250 approval, communities often come to find out that their town plans are more 鈥渁spirational鈥� than anything else. Here鈥檚 Jim Dumont again, who helped oppose the Dollar General in Chester:
鈥淭own plans speak in terms of, 鈥極ur goal is this, our goal is that.鈥� Well that鈥檚 very nice, but if you want your town plan and the wishes of your community to mean something under Act 250, it can鈥檛 be a vision statement,鈥� Dumont says. 鈥淚t has to have specific concrete standards. Very few towns plans do.鈥�
And yes, local zoning can be more limiting. But it can still leave an opening.
鈥淎 lot of folks I鈥檝e worked with have been shocked,鈥� Dumont says. 鈥淭hey said, for example, in Chester, 鈥榃e have some really good language in our zoning, really good language in our town plan.鈥� And it turned out, the court said it wasn鈥檛 good enough.鈥�
Which means ... Chester lost
That鈥檚 right. The opponents of Dollar General in Chester, who took their case all the way to the Vermont Supreme Court? They lost.
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鈥淭he language was too vague,鈥� says Claudio V茅liz, the architect. 鈥淵ou either have the ordinances in place before all this happens, or you lose. It really is that simple.鈥�
But Alan Biederman, who represented the developer, says it鈥檚 tricky. Say you set a size limit for a new building of 10,000 square feet.
鈥淭hat means it can be 9,900 square feet,鈥� Biederman says. 鈥淪o do you then say, 鈥極K, well we really meant 5,000 square feet'? Well, do you want buildings that are 4,990 square feet?鈥�
Chester did adopt a 5,000 square foot limit 鈥� after the Dollar General came in. And Alan Biederman says there鈥檚 another answer to Danielle鈥檚 question. In his experience, when there鈥檚 local opposition, big corporations can often afford to push their projects through.
鈥淏y the time you鈥檙e going to the Supreme Court, you鈥檝e already knocked out anyone who didn鈥檛 have an abundance of money,鈥� he says. 鈥淎nd so what you wind up with is ... most development is going to be done by multi-state and multi-national entities.鈥�
As for the opposition鈥檚 attorney, Jim Dumont? He went on to work with other towns fighting Dollar General developments. All told, he's worked with four communities: Chester, Ferrisburgh, Jericho and Hardwick.
And of those four communities, how many now have Dollar Generals?
鈥淎ll four," he says.
The Chester Dollar General has been open for about three years now. We go to the store on a Thursday afternoon. There鈥檚 a steady churn of shoppers buying this and that.
This is where we met Alicia Muguira. We heard from her earlier; she was in support of this store. And she shops at Dollar General 鈥� a lot.
鈥淣ormally twice a day, I swear to God,鈥� Alicia says. She says her staples are toys, water, clothing, and arts and crafts supplies.
鈥淏ecause they have a good selection,鈥� she adds.
Dillan Coburn works for Ludlow Ambulance and Chester Ambulance, and he says he tries to do all of his shopping at this Dollar General. Today, he鈥檚 here to pick up a gift for his Secret Santa on the Ludlow crew. He's holding some muffin tins.
鈥淎pparently that鈥檚 what he wanted, and some muffin mix,鈥� Coburn says. 鈥淪o, satisfy all of his muffin needs.鈥�
Coburn wasn鈥檛 around during the fight over this store, but he knows about it. And he thinks things worked out for the best.
鈥淚 mean, look at how many people shop here," he says. "I don鈥檛 think really anybody has anything bad to say about it now."
But Scott Blair, who owns the Southern Pie Cafe in Chester鈥檚 village, has mixed feelings.
鈥淚 do go there, I鈥檓 gonna be the first to admit that I do go there,鈥� he says.鈥滲ut do I support that coming into the town? No.鈥�
Ultimately, Blair says, it鈥檚 more convenient to swing by the Chester Dollar General for things like toiletries than it is to drive all the way to Rutland or New Hampshire.
We heard a similar sentiment in the town of Johnson, where we met Pat Douglas.
"As you can see, everybody's happy about the place," he says. "Otherwise they wouldn't be shopping."
Standing in the parking lot of the Dollar General there, Douglas says the store fills a gap in the community.
鈥淵ou know everyone here in town, especially here in town 鈥� no one鈥檚 rich. And if we can save $40 a week, that鈥檚 a lot of money to an ordinary Joe that works 40, 50 hours a week and makes $14 an hour or so,鈥� Douglas says.
And what about the people who don鈥檛 like Dollar Generals?
鈥淚 think they have a little more money,鈥� Douglas says. 鈥淭hat鈥檚 what I think.鈥�
A new chapter for Lisai's Market
So what happened to Lisai鈥檚 Chester Market, the local grocery store? Turns out, for now, they鈥檙e doing OK. Lonnie Lisai says once they knew Dollar General was coming, they started strategizing.
鈥淲ell basically, we figured out what their strength is. And it鈥檚 groceries. There鈥檚 no way we鈥檙e gonna compete head-to-head with groceries,鈥� Lisai says. 鈥淎nd so I sat down with my staff, and we started looking at the produce, the dairy, the meat, the deli 鈥� anything fresh that Dollar General doesn鈥檛 carry.鈥�
Lisai gives us a tour of his store to show off everything they鈥檝e improved and changed in response to the Dollar General. There are prepared foods ready for today鈥檚 lunch crowd: Steak tips, stuffed shells, pork egg rolls, spicy kielbasa pasta and much more.
The market now sells organic produce, and Lisai is particularly proud of the fresh meat and the wine and beer selection.
鈥淲e really increased our beer and wine sales by making it look attractive,鈥� he says.
He tells us that sales did take a hit when Dollar General arrived 鈥� they went down 10%. Now they鈥檙e a little higher, but still down 5% from the pre-D.G. days.
鈥淲hich is good, very good, so we鈥檙e climbing back up,鈥� Lisai says. 鈥淭his past three, four, five months, we鈥檙e almost even.鈥�
And he hasn鈥檛 had to fire anyone, though he did stop hiring part-time high schoolers for a while.
There are 25 people who work here. In fact, one of Lonnie Lisai鈥檚 employees came from the Dollar General: Shaina Robinson is cooking crab rangoon egg rolls in the back kitchen.
鈥淗e鈥檚 the best boss I鈥檝e ever had,鈥� Robinson says of Lisai. 鈥淚鈥檝e got three kids, and you know, he lets me work mom hours, and it makes my life a lot easier than any other job I鈥檝e had.鈥�
Robinson now makes $15 an hour 鈥� she says Dollar General had paid her minimum wage.
When we asked the company what they pay their employees, PR director Crystal Ghassemi wouldn't give specifics.
鈥淎t Dollar General, we provide all of our employees with competitive wages, benefits and the opportunity to grow a career at Dollar General,鈥� Ghassemi said.
And when we asked to interview a current employee of the Chester Dollar General, the company wouldn't allow it.
Now, Chester is just one town. But for his part, Lonnie Lisai has a theory about what鈥檚 changed since the Dollar General came.
鈥淪o basically what I鈥檓 thinking what happened was, more and more people are staying in town now,鈥� he says. 鈥淭hey鈥檙e not going to go to Claremont [in New Hampshire], they鈥檙e not going to go to Rutland.鈥�
Rather than driving elsewhere for a big shop, Lonnie thinks more people are finding what they need in Chester 鈥� sometimes at the Dollar General, and sometimes at his market.
鈥淥nce we figure this all out, it鈥檚 like a mutual 鈥� it鈥檚 helping each other out,鈥� Lisai says. 鈥淎nd I think the whole village is benefitting. More people, more cars.鈥�
Perhaps this is an attractive environment for a buyer. This past summer, Lisai and his wife, Obe, decided to sell Lisai鈥檚 Chester Market. Not because of Dollar General, Lisai tells us, but because they want to retire.
鈥淲e鈥檙e selling a way of life, we鈥檙e not selling an investment,鈥� he says. 鈥淚f people come in here, they鈥檙e gonna look at, 鈥極K, Lonnie, you had all your five children go through college, they all worked here, your best friends are some of your staff.' It鈥檚 a way of life. And if you recognize that, you鈥檙e going to be very successful.鈥�
As for Dollar General, the company has ambitions to keep growing. In the coming year, they want to open 1,000 new stores.
When we asked how many they鈥檙e planning for Vermont, or what communities they鈥檙e considering, they wouldn't say.
Brave Little State is a production of 开云体育 Radio. We have support from the VPR Innovation Fund. You can support us in many ways: , follow us on or at @bravestatevt, recommend our show to your pals or leave us a review on your favorite podcast app.
Our editor is Lynne McCrea and our theme music is by Ty Gibbons. Other music by Blue Dot Sessions. Our digital producer is Elodie Reed, and we have engineering support from Chris Albertine.
Special thanks to John Echeverria.
